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Topic : 11/06 The Lie Detector

Number of Replies: 1236
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Created on : Friday, November 03, 2006, 12:57:52 pm
Author : DrPhilBoard1
Dr. Phil vowed to find out the truth behind accusations that Jeremy molested his 3-year-old daughter, Kaylee. Krista and Bonii, Kaylee’s mom and grandmother, brought videos to Dr. Phil to try to back up their charges against Jeremy, yet Jeremy maintained his innocence, insisting that Kaylee was coached to say bad things about him. Now, both sides are back after taking lie detector tests administered by a highly skilled polygrapher. Have Krista and Bonii been honest with Dr. Phil about their feelings and actions? Did Jeremy pass his lie detector test? Plus, did anyone try to use tactics to defeat the test? Share your thoughts here.

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November 5, 2006, 8:35 pm CST

in agreement

Quote From: casey35

I am a social worker who has worked 35 years in medical social work in a hospital and in private practice. I have had countless cases in which CPS was involved, and I must tell Dr. Phil that his experience with them (his blanket statement that "I've never had a case in which CPS..." - implying at the very least that CPS is always thorough in its investigations.) is way off from what happens in our county of well over 300,000 census. I would say that, in about 50% of the cases, they do a thorough job; and in the other 50% of the cases, there is a range from NO action whatsoever to minimal investigation to over-investigation (getting involved with issues that are extraneous, but not addressing the key issues of the case). I've been very concerned with the CPS outcome in many cases, and my hands are tied from impacting their actions in any way. All I can do is continue to report on the same case, and hope that eventually, they will consider the "proof" enough to warrant a thorough investigation. It is well known that CPS in most counties is overloaded with cases, short-staffed, and experiences inordinately high turnover because of the rate of burnout in CPS workers. Please don't assume such a positive stance on such a critical issue without knowing the state of affairs across the country.

 

I would have to agree with what was written above.  I have a niece who lives in my care finally.  You see my sister's children were all being abused for years.  My mom and I tried hard for many years to get these children out of their situation by reporting the abuse to CPS.  They would go into the home check that the living room was clean and make more visits only to say we are closing the case.  Only for someone else to turn them.  Now that sis and the biological father have split, neither of them have any of the children.  The thing that is really making me angry right now is getting the police department and the district attorney's office to actually do something about the abuse.  So far nobody has ever had to answer for any of the abuse.  Of course sis denies she was ever involved.  Her children have the memories to prove it though, as much as she denies it.  Where is justice for these kids?  All of them who are not protected.  I feel my niece and nephews were not only victimized by the perpetrators, but they have been victimized repeatedly by the system also.  No one here in this county seems to do their job!
 
November 5, 2006, 9:36 pm CST

CPS

Quote From: casey35

I am a social worker who has worked 35 years in medical social work in a hospital and in private practice. I have had countless cases in which CPS was involved, and I must tell Dr. Phil that his experience with them (his blanket statement that "I've never had a case in which CPS..." - implying at the very least that CPS is always thorough in its investigations.) is way off from what happens in our county of well over 300,000 census. I would say that, in about 50% of the cases, they do a thorough job; and in the other 50% of the cases, there is a range from NO action whatsoever to minimal investigation to over-investigation (getting involved with issues that are extraneous, but not addressing the key issues of the case). I've been very concerned with the CPS outcome in many cases, and my hands are tied from impacting their actions in any way. All I can do is continue to report on the same case, and hope that eventually, they will consider the "proof" enough to warrant a thorough investigation. It is well known that CPS in most counties is overloaded with cases, short-staffed, and experiences inordinately high turnover because of the rate of burnout in CPS workers. Please don't assume such a positive stance on such a critical issue without knowing the state of affairs across the country.

 

I live in Texas, I read about to many cases where CPS, didn't  look at cases, and children were mistreated and sometime killed. And for the lie detective test, there are some people can fool it.This time Dr. Phil, this guy will passed this test and that baby will be in real danger. Let's hope that mother don't believe the law because in the end that child will be the loser. What chilld that age has a yeast infection? Dr. Phil, I beg you don't let that man alone with that baby because you will never forgive yourself.
 
November 5, 2006, 9:44 pm CST

what

Quote From: jules_frecker

I believe the accusations are false and the woman are paranoid and are getting on with histrionics to manipulate and get rid of the ex.  Paranoid people are dangerous.
Are you crazy? have you not watched the tapes where the little girl is crying out to her mom and Grandma for help? kids don't lie about abuse unless they are being told to.  Do you have kids? what would you say to your little girl if she came home and said that her other parent was touching him/her? Would you say it was false accusations and she/he is JUST BEING PARANOID. Jeramy sat in front of a camera on the show and had to think weather or not he put his tonge in his daughters mouth!! To me he IS GUILTY along with his new girlfriend. And yes maybe the mom but she is not guilty of sexual abuse she is guilty of not protecting her daughter when she told them about the abuse the firt time around." Think about"  I have a 4 year old daughter and if she came home from a visit with her dad and she told me he touched her I would spend the rest of my life in jail cause I would put him 6 feet under no questions asked.
 
November 5, 2006, 9:45 pm CST

Protections

Quote From: hellokitty86

Although I do agree with what you have said I have to say something in defense of the mother. If the mother was to say NO she can't go with you the police would be involved, and since he does have the legal rights to the police would have to give the child to him, and this would be marked on the papers for the courts. I 100% agree with your feelings, but when it all comes down to it, child protectives didn't find anything wrong, so there isn't something thats saying the case is still pending blah blah, so he does have the legal right, now for moral rights is a different story. I know that Dr. Phil will do more then needed to find the answers , and help this sweet little girl.. God bless this little one and what she's been put through from both sides of it all.
When it comes to my children, no-one will tell me how to protect them because I've seen to many children harm and they gave them back to the abuser. I believe if I have to run and hide so be it, and let the chip fall where they lay.
 
November 5, 2006, 10:34 pm CST

11/06 The Lie Detector

Quote From: granmacares

Are you serious....you must not have listened too closely to what was being said and what was being left out....maybe it was the way they edited the tape...I'm sure a lot more was said...BUT the father was setting up one excuse after another...that is why it was taking him so long to answer....pedophiles do that....both men and women....and the step-mother needs to be investigated as well...she's a part of this big-time....his excuses for things are nothing more than that...it tells in the eyes and true lack of emotion.... if the man has any...as most pedophiles and psychopaths....they honestly believe what they are doing is justified.  That little girl needs to be kept safely away from the father and his new wife entirely.  Did you not hear how old he was when he got the mother pregnant and how old she was when they started dating?  That alone was cause for concern....he's just gone to even younger girls....i.e. is daughter.  So much of what was said was not stomped on by Dr. Phil...maybe editing did him a diservice...maybe not...but in the end hopefully Dr. Phil will get it resolved and have the cuffs slapped on both the father and step-mother once and for all...and the mother vindicated for wanting to protect her daughter! Protecting the victim...Kaylee.....is what should be of prime importance here.
I agree that the father was definatly dodgy about the whole situation, but what about the mother's role in this?  If you are right, and the father did molest Kaylee, what was the mother thinking by continuing to allow Kaylee to visit with him?  I don't care what the courts say, if that were my daughter, she would be kept as far away from him as possible.  This is all assuming that he's guilty.  If the mother did, in fact, put this in her daughter's head, then she and the grandma both need some serious help.  Either way, that poor child...I'm definatly praying for her well being.  What a tragedy.
 
November 5, 2006, 11:07 pm CST

CPS and other tragedies....

Quote From: gucci93

I would have to agree with what was written above.  I have a niece who lives in my care finally.  You see my sister's children were all being abused for years.  My mom and I tried hard for many years to get these children out of their situation by reporting the abuse to CPS.  They would go into the home check that the living room was clean and make more visits only to say we are closing the case.  Only for someone else to turn them.  Now that sis and the biological father have split, neither of them have any of the children.  The thing that is really making me angry right now is getting the police department and the district attorney's office to actually do something about the abuse.  So far nobody has ever had to answer for any of the abuse.  Of course sis denies she was ever involved.  Her children have the memories to prove it though, as much as she denies it.  Where is justice for these kids?  All of them who are not protected.  I feel my niece and nephews were not only victimized by the perpetrators, but they have been victimized repeatedly by the system also.  No one here in this county seems to do their job!

I agree.  I know of some of this through first hand knowledge and then plain COMMON SENSE.  If you have a gabillion cases, give or take a few....it is IMPOSSIBLE to do a good job on all the casework. 

 

Also, I was stunned that Dr. Phil was so seemingly capable of talking out of both sides of his mouth:  "If a child tells me 'Someone touched my peepee', WHAT DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DO?"  (Almost hollering at the person....the man)  THEN.........................he turns around and interrogates the mom like she is just pulling this stuff out of her....ear.  Come on!

 

I do not think that mom did ONE THING WRONG.  No, I do not think she "feeds the drama, power, emotions of the child" at all.  The kid feels what she feels, says what she thinks, acts like she acts..........Dr. Phil....it is what it IS.

 

If the guy is snarling at his ex, "KISS MY ASS"....(it dawned on me that he is saying it because HE IS/WAS CLEARED OF ALL WRONG-DOING BY THE POLYGRAPH!).....if he is cleared, he's cleared.  The little girl can also misrepresent "her peepee"....ANYONE CHANGING DIAPERS KNOWS YOU HAVE TO CLEAN ALL OF THAT AREA AND THAT IS WHY I AM AGAINST  M E N  CHANGING LITTLE GIRLS' DIAPERS.  Just on principle.  I don't like it, never have, never will.  (The little girl is saying he touched her peepee and she is telling the TRUTH, because HE TOUCHED HER PEEPEE WHEN HE CHANGED HER DIAPER, forcryinoutloud!  Why didn't Dr. Phil think or consider that THIS might be the case???)

 

And don't anyone tell me to get my mind out of the gutter because it isn't there.  I just don't think that is proper.  Same DOES NOT GO for a mom changing a baby boy.  Like I said...

 
November 5, 2006, 11:52 pm CST

Amen!

Quote From: northernmom

The father, or stepmother for that matter very well could be guilty, and if they are then they should not leave the Dr. Phil stage without being hauled off by the authorities...

however, as i posted before, my husband and I have experienced this same thing all because my stepdaughter told her mother she wanted to live with us & her mother was determined to make sure my husband wouldn't stand a chance in heck of getting full custody by accusing him of abuse. Luckily in our case the woman has so many split personalities (in my personal opinion) that she just can't keep her stories straight & slipped up in an interview with the original investigators & basically said that she made it up. Too bad she drug my stepdaughter into the police station with her to give 'her story.' We found all of this out after the fact from one of the investigators (after the polygraphs, interviews, etc. were all over). One of the main things that supposedly tipped them off that she was lying was that when interviewing my stepdaughter, her mom refused to leave the room & then refused to keep quiet, continually 'correcting' the girls story. They still questioned my husband & me but only used our statements against her. We no longer have anything to do with her or, unfortunately, my step daughter as this woman does not know when to stop. We had the choice of filing for custody (told we'd have 75% chance but she'd still get visitation & we'd STILL have to put up with her, or give up the visits with my stepdaughter & also give up direct contact with the mom. We chose the latter) We've moved THREE times since all of this happened and she is still trying to get our address from our lawyer. Whenever she finds out where we live (in a different town) she just shows up! For the typical reasons of course... in town shopping & couldn't find a store with a washroom, could she use ours please. Stuff like that. It is very, very difficult to go after her for harrassment when there is a child involved. Beleive me, we've tried EVERY angle for the past several years. Our son's school has her full description as she has even tried to show up there! We can't press charges unless she actually tries something. It hasn't counted when she just sits outside in a car or stands on the front lawn.

 

So, it is very possible that a mother can manipulate a child, even a 3 year old. I'm not saying that Kaylee IS in fact being manipulated, however, I don't know any mother (other than that of my stepdaughter) who would allow their child time after time to go with someone when they are screaming and balling like that. Now there is separation anxiety which is different. A mom drops her kindergartener off at school for the first week and she cries bloody murder every morning because she doesn't want to be away from mommy. In cases like that, the teacher, school councellor, etc. would typically advise the mom to leave the child at school even if he/she is still crying. The child will adjust. That is one thing. But if a child (coached for video or not) is screaming and crying that she doesn't want to go with someone because they might hurt her pee pee, that mother should be balling and crying herself (which I didn't hear either Krista or her mother doing) and also refusing to let the daughter go. And after videotaping what she is saying take the tape to the cops, CPS, a lawyer or whoever and say "I know I am breaching the court order by not letting the dad take her but THIS is why I refused!" and then let them deal with it. I certainly would not take a video and send it into a talk show so my poor daughters face could be plastered over millions of television screens! Not to mention the mom should be jumping down the throat of the accused person not saying 'okay I'm putting you down so your accussed molester can take you for 2 unsupervised days and nights. See ya.' ! I know if my child accused someone of doing that to him, that person would NOT be leaving my yard unless black & blue or in handcuffs!

 

My stepdaughter had always been coached by her mom. If the roads were really bad and we could not drive all the way to her house to pick her up because it wasn't safe, her mom would have her call here (we're talking while she was between the ages of 2 -7) and 'cry' that she hates daddy now because he doesn't love her enough to pick her up. We recorded some of these conversations for our lawyer where you can even here her mom in the background telling her to 'sound more sad'. Her mom would even put into her head that we would go to the fair, park etc. without her and almost every other visit we ever had with my stepdaughter she would be pouting and angry at us for doing these fun things without her... even though we never did.

 

It is true that if a child of 3 years old comes up themselves with a story like Kaylee was saying, then it probably is true as they cannot 'make up' a lie like that. A child that age would make up a lie with a more fantasy-type story. It is also true that a child CAN be coached to say things even if they are only 3. Also, there is such anger between the parents as it is, I bet that everyother word Kaylee hears from either household is something negative about the other. It is also quite possible that she has fears and anxieties towards the father & stepmother because she only hears bad things about them so they MUST be bad.

 

There are things that ARE questionable such as the torn labia, but WHY if CPS knew this occured at the dads house and they called the mom at 4am about it, then WHY would they not step in and investigate the dad before allowing the child back there to visit? I know they can be overworked, underworking, negligent at times but THAT is a suspicious injury that would and should raise their eyebrows.

 

I hope that Kaylee is able to get help, which I'm sure Dr. Phil will make certain of. It may turn out that the dad is guilty, however, I'm saying it is possible that the dad is being falsly accussed to some extent. 

Thank you so much for seeing the "other side of the coin."  I just couldn't get past the mother and grandmother's behavior.  If that were my child saying that something had happened while with her father, there would be NO WAY she would ever be with him unsupervised again.  And the blaise attitude of the mother and grandmother ("Oh, did they do that to you again?") just really ticked me off.  I just really hope that Dr. Phil can get to the bottom of all this and that Kaylee can come out on the other side not having to see any of them for the rest of her life!  People like that don't deserve to have children! 
 
November 6, 2006, 1:08 am CST

Proof Jeremys Guilty of Molesting Kaylee

I've read so very many posts on this subjects, and while I must give props to everyone for trying to remain unbiased in a situation that usually causes in most people rage and a lust for vengeance, I must say: BOO! to the few fools who tried to turn this into religious debate...shame on all of you!

Now, that said, I believe I saw some something on the first day of the show that proves Jeremy is molesting Kaylee. Now, Jeremy swears that he's never inappropriately touched his daughter, that his ex-wife and her mother have caused all this uproar by coaching Kaylee to lie about her father, giving her treats in exchange for "anti-daddy" statements. He also says that Kaylee is just fine while she's away from her mom and grandma, and he and his wife made a video to prove it.

First, what isn't in the tape:

Hardly anything. This tape is supposed to be showing what a happy weekend at dad's is like, and, if you included Kaylee's cries for reprieve at pick up and drop off (which they did) I'd be amazed if it covered 7 minutes of footage. Other than that, there was a bit with Kaylee on the couch, with her step-mother clearly heard coaxing her to state that she loves her father and step-mother. When she spontaneously adds her mothers name "Krista!" with much more enthusiasm, I must say, step-mother sounds slightly annoyed as she and Kaylee say bye.

 

   It's the scene after this one that disturbs me. I think it's proof positive that Jeremy is molesting Kaylee. While step-mother holds the camera and quietly coaxes Kaylee to tell her father she loves him. It's the exact same scene as before (apparently they don't eat, play or read or do anything else worth filming). Now Jeremy is sitting on couch, with Kaylee in his lap. His right hand lies motionless on his leg. Kaylee is perched on his left leg. His left arm does not cradle around his daughters back. In fact, it seems to have disappeared, taking his left had with it. There's a little bit of very light conversation, mostly about how Kaylee should tell the world how much she loves her daddy, when she calmly tells her father to stop tickling her, he makes some vague denial, then she repeats herself, more firmly. Not once did Jeremy make a visible movement. And Kaylee didn't have the jump and giggle response that usually goes along with kids. I'm not sure, but I think she tenses up against what's happening under her.

I think Jeremy was molesting Kaylee with that "invisible" left hand. I think he gets some disgusting thrill out of seeing how much he can get away with right in front of people, and I'll bet that there was something about molesting on the tape that he was making to prove he wasn't molesting that sent his arrogance, poor impulse control and general worm-eaten brain sickness into a tizzy.

If it is true that he did this, and I feel the evidence was quite blatant, it means Kaylee won't even be safe with supervised visits. Daddy dearest will just see them as a challenge. One more thing to ponder: If it's this obvious me, why couldn't her step-mother figure out what was going on? Either she really is involved "THEY touched my peepee" or she feels so threatened (yes, as if Kaylee is a competitor lover) that she's been beating herself over the head with denial.

 
November 6, 2006, 1:08 am CST

Get real!

Come on people!  Anyone can see, that whether or not that little girl has been molested, she obviously does not want to go anywhere near her father.  She is terrified.  There has to be some reason for that.  She's 3....if she was coached into acting that way, then she deserves an Oscar!  Any 3-year old who had been bribed with toys or candy to act like that, would then turn to the person who had promised those things and ask for them....such as, "Ok grandma, can I have my toy now?"  The dad is seriously strange.  Who would have to stop and think...run events over in their mind, to know whether or not they had ever put their tongue in their child's mouth?  The guy was incredibly creepy....the way he mulled over the questions posed to him about knowing anyone who had ever been molested....weird. 

 

As for the lie detector test....it's not black and white.  I don't think we will necessarily know the truth once we have the results.  As a mother, I wouldn't be waiting around for some test results....I would know my child....I would believe my child....and I would never hand my child over to someone who they were terrified of....ever!  If that meant that I would be breaking some court-ordered visitation, then so be it.  I would document everything and explain why I would not comply.  If I was still ordered to do so, then I would take my child and I would go 'underground'....I'd do whatever it would take to protect them, period. 

 

As for Dr. Phil's attitude and comments about Child Protective Services....come on Dr. Phil...get real.  Even if every single experience you have ever had with those agencies has been positive, that does not mean that everyone has been treated the same.  You can't be that blind that you don't realize that many errors are made on their part....sometimes those mistakes result in children being further abused or neglected and sometimes even result in death.  These agencies are not infallible.  They are overworked, underpaid, human beings!  I'm sure there are many wonderful social workers out there....who truly care....but I am also certain there are just as many who do not care, or who do not put in the time and effort that is necessary to thoroughly investigate each situation.  They are human....they have bad days....bad weeks, months....they have stress in their own lives....not to mention a very stressful job....they only have so many resources....they make judgement calls.  Anyone who does that....is bound to make mistakes, no one is perfect...they do not have crystal balls. 

 

Come on Dr. Phil, read the comments of all your viewers.....read their stories....listen to their experiences.  Have the courage to admit that you should not have attacked that mother as though it wasn't possible that she was blown off by some caseworker.  You don't know if that's what happened or not.  Admit that while you may have never had a negative experience with them, many have.  Address it on your show.....do one of your hidden investigations.  Set up some 'fake' situations at random agencies all over the country, tell America what is really going on.  Realize that they are human....and thereby fallible.  Children do fall through the cracks.  Huge mistakes are made.  People's concerns are sometimes just blown off.  They are not perfect....and everyone who works in that field does not perform their duties to the best of their ability, everyday.

 
November 6, 2006, 3:48 am CST

Upsetting

It was so upsetting to watch that little girl cry and cry that she did not want to go with her Daddy.  I was willing to give the Dad the benefit of the doubt until I watched him sit alone one on one with Dr. Phil and took so long to answer the Dr.'s questions and to hear him make the comment about "it's possible he could have done something wrong while sleep walking".....give me a break. 

I just wanted to scoop that little girl up and protect her.  I know Dr. Phil will do all he can to do that.
 
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